The Rational Basis® of Happiness Podcast

The Selfish Path to Romance. Download chapter one for free at drkenner.com and amazon.com. That's the prize, a free buffet. Oh well, no, actually, it's not a buffet. It's a special reception at 10 o'clock in the penthouse conference room where a spectacular once-in-a-lifetime opportunity awaits you. What do you think? I think it's some kind of scam. Oh, good, a scam. We'll do it.

Now, there are many books about scam artists. Actually, I'm sitting here with several of them in front of me. Flim Flam by James Randi, Sting Shift, written for cops to detect scam artists. There are even people who specialize in preying on religious individuals. They make people think that only a special kind of praying will heal your ailments. The tricks that they use are known. They're clever, they're well documented. A healthy diet and exercise and good thinking methods will help a person much more than prayer will. Yet, from my practice, I know that many people successfully use prayer to overcome psychological problems. With me today to discuss this apparent contradiction is Dr. Ed Buckner. Dr. Buckner is a part-time educational consultant who received his Ph.D. in educational leadership from Georgia State University. He has consulted for the Criminal Justice Review, has taught statistics, and is the executive director of the Council for Secular Humanism. Welcome to the show.

Well, thank you. I'm glad to be with you.

So I would love to know what's going on with prayer? Why do people love praying? Why do many people feel let down by it? Is there any good in it, or is it all bad?

Oh, I'm sure there's some good in it. Prayer means different things to different people under different circumstances.

Can you give an example?

Well, when somebody says they're praying, what they really mean is that they're stopping and taking some time out for quiet reflection and introspection. That's probably a good thing, and probably a lot of us ought to do that more often.

So if I said, "Dear God, I don't know what to do about my husband. He cheated on me. Should I leave him or not? You know what? This is the 10th time he's done it. I think I better leave him. I'm sick of this. And thank you so much, God." Really, the person is doing their own introspection. They started with "Dear God" and ended it with "Dear God," but what goes on inside is really their own credit. It's really their own introspective ability.

Yeah, I think that's part of what goes on. It depends on what people mean by and what they expect when they pray. There was a preacher in Cobb County, Georgia, where I came from, who said in a newspaper column that all prayers are answered, that the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no, and sometimes wait. The interesting thing about that, of course, is that there's no way to test whether the prayer was effective or not, because all possibilities are covered. He meant that as a positive description of prayer. In fact, from a rational point of view, it means that nothing counts as evidence for or against whether prayer is effective. Those folks, I had somebody ask me one time, "You're not a Catholic. Would you go to a Catholic hospital if you needed surgery?" And my reply was, what would matter to me about a hospital would not be the religious beliefs of the surgeon, or whether he was religious, but whether he was well-trained, whether he knew what he was doing, whether he had skills, whether he valued his profession, and whether the hospital had the proper equipment—all those kinds of things. There have been studies that purportedly show that praying for people makes them healthier or more likely to recover from illness. But in fact, there's no way to control for that, because allegedly, at least, there are people praying for everyone. And it's also a strange notion that there is this all-powerful being who is affected by the quantity of prayer, where a little bit more prayer will help somebody heal a little bit better. Why wouldn't he just go ahead and heal them if that's what he wants?

Right, and bypass the praying. Why didn’t we stop September 11 from happening?

Exactly. I also think it’s important. I've heard over and over again people say, "Oh, it was a miracle she recovered from this illness," or "She was in an airplane crash, and everybody else died, but she didn't. It's a miracle." What about the other people who didn't recover? What about the folks who had cancer and had people praying for them, or were doing their best to survive whatever natural or unnatural disaster occurred? It's not rational to think that just because you happened to survive something, it was due to something supernatural.

You could ask yourself, is there another explanation for this that’s rational?

And not only could you ask yourself, you should. It’s very important.

People will say, "I don’t need any explanations. I just have faith in the process. I pray, I enjoy it. Leave me alone."

Hey, I gotta interrupt this because we’ve got to pay some bills. Thirty seconds, that’s it. A very quick ad, and then Alan will be back.

Romance. Oh, I wish guys knew more about what we want from a relationship. Boy, I wish I knew more about what I want. Where’s that ad I saw? Ah, here it is, The Selfish Path to Romance, a serious romance guidebook. Download chapter one for free at selfishromance.com, and buy it at amazon.com. Hmm, The Selfish Path to Romance. That is interesting.

People will say, "I don’t need any explanations. I just have faith in the process. I pray, I enjoy it. Leave me alone."

I honestly think that if somebody wants to enjoy doing something like this in the privacy of their own life, they should be able to, but I don’t think they should try to get others to do it. If they say to me in the public arena that it helps and that I ought to convert to doing this sort of thing, then I have a problem with that. Then I want some evidence. Then I want them to show me how it works.

You just have to have faith.

Well, that’s a circular argument. What is it that I have to have faith in? Where do I start with this rational process?

Take a leap of faith and enjoy it. Let yourself go.

A leap of faith to what? Do I take a leap of faith to Vishnu, to Jesus, to Mohammed, to one or another new-age spirits? You know, somewhere you have to make a decision about which direction you're going to leap. It seems to me that you need to use your brain and be rational about these things, and think it through. Don’t just do what your neighbor does or what your parents always did. Do what makes sense. And what makes sense isn’t always obvious.

When I heard the definition of faith, it helped me a lot: it’s belief in something for which there is no evidence, or for which there is contradictory evidence. If I can’t make sense of it, I don’t buy it. I love my mind too much. I love reality too much. I love the truth too much to not make sense of things. And if people tell me they have special powers, and I don't have them, that doesn't make any sense.

Right. Show me the evidence. Show me some reasons. I don't mean you have to show me a complete, comprehensive reason to conclude something, because sometimes that's not available. But there should at least be some evidence, and no contradictory evidence.

Exactly. That's the scientific method, absolutely.

The important thing about a scientific approach, and a rational approach, is to maintain tentativeness even when you're nearly sure. Stop short of saying you're sure when, in fact, all the evidence isn't in.

You know what? I would phrase that differently. I like the idea of "contextual certainty"—that within the context of our current knowledge, these are our conclusions, and we are open to new evidence.

There you go. That’s right. There’s a big difference between being a skeptic and being a cynic. I don’t think it’s wise to be a cynic. I do think it’s wise to be a skeptic.

I love skepticism without cynicism. I love using your mind well, to be able to grasp facts and know when you don’t have all the facts, and know when there could be more facts. That's okay too.

Agreed.

Let’s see. We've been talking about how you use your mind. If we got to the essence of our conversation today, it’s: do you use your mind by taking leaps, where you disconnect from evidence? You believe something just because other people say it, or because you want something to be true—that’s wishful thinking. I think that’s dangerous in the short run and the long run. It won’t lead to your own confidence or peace of mind.

I agree entirely.

Whereas, when you use your mind well, and think clearly, and know when you need more evidence or when you're confused, and you work to clarify that confusion, you love the internal workings of your mind. You can admire yourself, and that pays off in happiness. You're not afraid of introspecting. You can ask yourself questions and learn a lot more about yourself. I want to thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you.

For more Dr. Kenner podcasts, go to drkenner.com, and please listen to this.

Here’s an excerpt from The Selfish Path to Romance, the serious romance guidebook by clinical psychologist Dr. Ellen Kenner and co-author Dr. Edwin Locke:

A romantic relationship is a mutually beneficial trade, not charity or self-sacrifice.